This is crossposted at Bring it on where there are many many links. They didn’t survive the cross post
It’s an expansion of a post I wrote last week; Neil’s comment made me think, and face some realities I choose to push to the back of my multi-cultural mind. But if you read Neil’s post today….
I enforce my comment policy. If you hate me or the ACLU, I would feel sorry for you, but…go to Bring it on! where I will answer your comment
Yes I know; you’re sick of this subject. Me too. But here I go…
I’m a New York Jew; a life long Democrat and a card carrying member of the ACLU. Much of the time I’m very disappointed in the Democratic party, but at this moment it’s better than the alternative. I don’t believe in all of the ACLU’s causes, but I believe that everybody has a right to be represented.
But when I read blogs that blame the ACLU and/or minority groups for taking Christ out of Christmas, I have to say that as a Jew I, and most Jews, want you to celebrate Christmas. On Christmas Jews traditionally went to the movies and ate Chinese food. We think it would be good if you spent time in church or with your family; as we liked it when the theaters weren’t packed.
In the 80’s my friends practicing Catholics wanted to go to the Limelight on Christmas Eve after Midnight Mass. I was beyond shocked. The Limelight was (is?) a disco in a former Catholic Church. It sounded blasphemous to me. It felt like eating pork on Yom Kippur. We went; and I did have a life changing experience.
I don’t think I believe in G-d but I respect people of any religion who truly believe. If I were to feel that I was in any way denying you the ability to pray, I would feel that I have failed as both a person and a person who does worship The First Amendment. I don’t care about the manger in the courthouse. But understand something else. I care greatly that church and state stay separate.
Before the news of the mega churches closing I wrote a post in my personal blog about the Christmas/holiday season mess. One of the comments was from a Jewish blogger, Neil, who is usually very witty and tres lite. He really struck a chord; couldn’t stop thinking about his comment and asked for permission to quote him.
Frankly, I think one of the things that makes our country so great is that the majority religion has tried so hard
to make minorities feel comfortable. Where else have Jews and others been made to feel as equals and as comfortable with Christian holidays? Certainly not in many European countries where you are considered Jewish first, then a citizen of that country.New York is not the rest of the country. I think it would be nice to bring back some of the religiosity to Christmas in big cities, so it isn’t such a consumerized holiday. Thank you, Christians, for being so good to the rest of us. You can now celebrate Christmas a little more openly.
However, things are different in smaller cities and towns around the country. Those places have a habit of mixing up religion and public policy. It is places like those where I don’t think it appropriate for the public sector to promote religion symbolism and ideology.
Here is where I want to delete most of what I wrote before Neil’s comment. It feels too silly. As Jews we do feel grateful to the Christians in this country for allowing us to be full citizens. We’re grateful because our great grandparents weren’t, usually, allowed to own land, have a profession or be citizens of their towns. They were allowed to be conscripted into the Czars army so they could wipe out Jewish villages. We’re grateful that they left and came to this remarkable country.
As a child I would ask my father why they didn’t do anything about the camps. “We didn’t know.” After Viet Nam, I understood. But Roosevelt, the people’s hero, had evidence of the camps, and our country did nothing. Nor did Roosevelt bomb the train tracks leading to them.
When boats of refuges came here, we turned them away, or didn’t let them near here, knowing that we were dooming them to death. After the war we took people who had been in concentration camps and put them in displaced persons camps. We had strict quotas on the number of refuges let in here
Yet we were still grateful because we who were here, and those of us yet to be born were afforded the opportunity to be full citizens. When we bought houses we remembered our ancestors who weren’t allowed to. It still amazes me and I’m basically third generation; but I heard so many stories and met so many people with numbers on their arms. I have never taken being free for granted. You accept us as we have never before been accepted in modern history.
Separation of church and state is built into our Constitution. If you understand the history of Jews in America, you will understand why we care so much about The First Amendment. It’s not just a symbol of our freedom, but a tool that is used to preserve every Americans right to keep church and state separate. Here are two quotes by Fran Quigley, Executive Director, Indiana Civil Liberties Union
For example, the Alliance Defense Fund celebrates the season with an “It’s OK to say Merry Christmas” campaign, implying that the ACLU has challenged such holiday greetings. (As part of the effort, you can get a pamphlet and two Christmas pins for $29.)
The website WorldNetDaily touts a book claiming “a thorough and virulent anti-Christmas campaign is being waged today by liberal activists and ACLU fanatics.” The site’s magazine has suggested there will be ACLU efforts to remove “In God We Trust” from U.S. currency, fire military chaplains, and expunge all references to God in America’s founding documents. (Learn more for just $19.95 . . .Of course, there is no “Merry Christmas” lawsuit, nor is there any ACLU litigation about U.S. currency, military chaplains, etc. But the facts are not important to these groups, because their real message is this: By protecting the freedom of Muslims, Jews, and other non-Christians through preventing government entanglement with religion, the ACLU is somehow infringing on the rights of those with majority religious beliefs
Many of us are fully assimilated; marry outside our religion; feel and look WASPier than the biggest WASP. But there’s always one moment when something happens that reminds us that other people view us as different. I know that most people are rational; that most people don’t believe this. (Did a Google “ACLU” “Christmas” search and this was the number one document.)
According to ACLU “Christmas haters” everyting refering to Christ inpublic has to go. But try as they might, they can’t take the spirit out of Christmas, something this group is in dire need of. Boy talk about selfishness
Yes let’s talk about being selfish; selfish is the same woman saying the following.
The Constitution can be read front to back, sideways, upside down, and nowhere does it read there needs to be a separation of church and state. Good grief! The framers would have been very dense or dumber than a box of rocks, to put separation of church and state in the most “intentionally” misunderstood document, and then proceeded to have a nation built on God and in every aspect of their lives
Good grief, indeed. If this is true then I have to not only be grateful to you, but bow down to your religious superiority, and that is where I draw the line.
Just understand that we’re not your problem. You are. If a person can find G-d in a concentration camp, any American can find G-d anywhere. It’s up to you to put Christ back in Christmas, not us.
I could never celebrate Christmas as a secular holiday. Why? It is the symbolic observation of Christ’s birthday no matter how you look at it. But selfishly I want you to celebrate it so that I can see the trees, lights, decorations and even go to some Christmas parties. That’s right; Christmas parties at peoples homes. Every other year my friends make an Italian feast in their Tudor house in Forest Hills Gardens, a picture perfect Ives & Currier Christmas community. It’s wonderful, but I will never have a Christmas dinner in my apartment.
Merry Christmas; Happy Hanukkah, Happy Kwanzaa, Happy Winter Solistice. I will call this season whatever you want me to call it as long as The First Amendment remains intact. And I will always be grateful to the USA for allowing my family to live as full citizens for over a century. Grateful but I will never feel less an American than you do. And I thank G-d for organizations like the ACLU that make sure I will always be a full American.
This is such a good post. My background is christian ‘Church of England’ and I went to a Methodist school. Although I would certainly not describe myself as a practicing christian, I am steeped in the tradition and faith almost by osmosis. It makes me very angry to see the spirituality taken out of a religious celebration and replaced with an orgy of consumerism as seems to have happened in the UK. And it makes me even angrier to see see politics and religion mixing. It’s dangerous.
Bravo! I just read about the whole Target boycott the other day, and was wondering why the hell it became every religious zealot’s mission to redefine America as a Christians Only Club. The founding fathers and mothers of this country were smart folks. The seperation of church and state is about as noble as one can get.
Great post. I would like to say that in an effort to separate Church and State that I would fully support removing “In God We Trust†from U.S. currency – but not for the reason some might think, but rather to separate the U.S. notion that God and money and/or profit are connected in any way. When one hears the term “In God We Trust†what does one think about first? The image of the currency in their wallet. Not Gaod and faith. That was not the intention, I’m sure, but if we take a good hard look at the sanctimonious us and them widening in the U.S. between those that have money, and those that do not – there is clearly a very bizarre idea that has developed as to who the chosen people actually are. We need only look back at Hurricane Katrina to see how our government responded to those that had little “In God We Trust” in their wallets. Just my opinion.
I have always thought alot of bad things happened by men standing behind the name of religion. In the Crusades did God really want villages pillaged, women raped, and young children murdered. I doubt it. I am a Christian, probably not a good one to most, but I try to focus more on love, forgiveness, etc. than “Abominations”. I believe in the right to choose for example. And you know what? I bet there are a whole lot of right wing parents who’d take Sweet Katie for an abortion at 15 so their buddies wouldn’t find out in the church, especially if they’re Deacons. Yet in public they scream about how wrong it is. I know for a fact almost every Baptist friend I had, experienced an abortion. ‘Cause our parents didn’t want to talk about it. Getting off the subject. I just hate to see what is happening to our country. Why are our young men and women losing their lives in a stupid, no-win-situation war yet people worry about the unborn? How does a relationship between adults that love each other and are committed to each other hurt anyone? To say God is behind every heterosexual marriage in the US is ridiculous. DO you think God really blesses the get drunk marry after 2 hours wedding in Vegas?
I guess what I am trying to say is that I’ve never thought the Jews worried about me celebrating Christmas. I have Jewish friends that we joke with each other on things we differ in….they seem to care less that I have a Christmas tree….
Dead on Pia. If I got annoyed everytime I saw a menorah in a store these days, or Kwanzaa cards, I’d spend more time being annoyed and less time just enjoying everything the grand four weeks of non-stop holidays brings.
As the kids say, thanks for keeping it real.
Hey Pia. I’m going to get to this on my blog, but the “war on Christmas” is wholly manufactured, so that lunatic fringers from the religious right can get on cable news.
Let’s run it down. People say “Happy Holidays” instead of “Merry Christmas.” True. But this is not because there is some opposition to saying “Merry Christmas,” nor is it symptomatic of anyone taking offense at “Merry Christmas.” I’d like to meet the person who was chastized by anyone he or she said “Merry Christmas” to. I’d like to meet the person who feels persecuted in 21st century for wishing anyone a Merry Christmas.
No, what’s going on is this. Many of us have jobs, or otherwise do work that has us regularly convening at a workplace with colleagues. Every year, starting at around December 20, people begin disappearing from work for 10, 15 day stretches. Part of this is because people travel to spend the holidays with family; part is because for people with kids in school, Christmas break affords a predictable, regular interval for taking a family vacation. And indeed things at the workplace generally grind to a virtual halt; often half or more of the people who work there are gone.
So when you say farewell and best wishes to your colleague, you know that they (or you) will be gone by Christmas, and you won’t see them again until AFTER NEW YEAR’S. By my count, that is TWO holidays.
Subsequently, in the American vernacular, we have come to wish each other Happy Holidays– not because Christmas is taboo (such a notion is pure insanity in a nation where 96% of the population celebrates Christmas); but rather because it is a convenient shorthand for describing that period of time encompassed by BOTH Christmas and New Year’s.
December 24 through January 1 is known in this country as “the holidays.”
And that’s all that’s going on here. Period. No anti-Christian plot; no secular plot. Just regular people speaking Americanized English.
****
Regarding the Target boycott, by the way: how anyone could walk into a Target this week and surmise some sort of anti-Christmas message hidden among the tinsel, mistletoe, greeting cards, ornaments, and Christmas decorations is beyond my feeble ability to comprehend.
Season’s Greetings, Pia. Ha!
No fair, I wasn’t done! Most of us know. Thank you for recognizing that most of us aren’t entirely stupid. The glory of the separation, other than the fact that Jesus suggested it, is that I believe Americans, of any faith, are free to have a truly personal relationship with God free from the national churches that bored most Europeans out of religion. God bless the First Amendment.
great post pia as usual
the thought though as that commenter suggest of people hav ing to be grateful that “the religious majority accepts and allows” them certain things to me is ridiculous and pretentious. No one has to be thankful for something that should just be a given in this country.
Happy Christmakah
Once again you said what most of us are thinking. It’s sad that the few idiots grabbing headlines make the rest of the world look bad.
I work with a guy who believes that the loudest person in a discussion is right. Sounds like he’s one of “those” people, doesn’t it.
If we needed approval to be citizens then I’m afraid that a lot of people would be dissapointed and homeless (the same could be said for many of those expecting to see heaven).
If your don’t like the Democrats, but think the Republicans are much worse, might I suggest you look into the Green Party. We’re still a party on the rise.
-from a fellow card-carrying ACLU member who gave up the Dems years ago.
Peace!
Another good post and I enjoy your take on the subject Pia.
As for comment #3, re “in God we trust” on our money, I can’t every take that serious since seeing a sign in some store years ago that said, “In God we trust, all others cash.” I also wonder when saying, “One nation under God,” what it would mean if we really took is seriously or if God held us accountable for what we do in his name (would we lie in order to invade another country?)
And, are you really old enough to have been a “clean for Eugene” in ’68 (I was 11 at the time)? You don’t have to answer that question in a pubic forum… And one final thing, I’m a pretty good ski instructor (for anyone that I’m not related to anyway).
Great post, Pia… I am a Methodist with all types of different religion friends, from Christians, Buddhist, Jews, Scientologist, etc… when bias and preconceptions come into play…it’s just to bad.
Pia,
In my opinion, this is your best post to date. It definately hits home this holiday season with all the hoopla about the words: Merry Christmas.
You are exactly right that nobody can remove Christ from anyone’s Christmas without their approval.
1 thing I’ve been proud about our country is the inclusiveness. Now, sadly, that may be changing.
It seems those who have issues with whatever is said, have a bitter taste about the holiday season. I say holiday season because when someone says Happy HOlidays, I think of it referred to everything from Thanksgiving to New Years.
I’m in a fairly combative mood about this particular topic so I’ll let this fellow explain it for me.
http://fuckchristmas.org/
Happy Holidays!!